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[闲话] 有知道“围海”兵棋史料出处的吗?

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    [LV.8]以坛为家I

    发表于 2019-7-20 12:54 | 显示全部楼层 |阅读模式
    我接触围棋史料已经有几十年的历史了,接触《孙子兵法》相关史料的时间更长,可一直都不知道有说孙武发明“围海”兵棋的说法,近来才从外国人的著述中得知此说。想求教一下论坛中的各位老师,希望有知道此说出处的老师能请不吝赐教。
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    发表于 2019-7-21 04:31 | 显示全部楼层
    首先你得提供所谓“外国人的著作”的来源,包括作者、书名、出版社名称,出版年代,等等。最主要的当然是前二者。

    作为围棋史常识,以在下之见,你所说的“‘围海’兵棋”并不存在。很可能是误传的结果。

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    [LV.10]以坛为家III

    发表于 2019-7-21 05:44 | 显示全部楼层
    可能性很低
    孫子兵法出土的也不算少
    從未見過這種說法
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    [LV.8]以坛为家I

     楼主| 发表于 2019-7-21 11:03 | 显示全部楼层
    偶一为之 发表于 2019-7-21 04:31
    首先你得提供所谓“外国人的著作”的来源,包括作者、书名、出版社名称,出版年代,等等。最主要的当然是前 ...

    神逻辑。
    我要是问民间相传太阳东升西落有史料出处吗?您也要求我得提供所谓民间相传的来源吗?即使我告诉您:是我邻居张大娘说的,又于问题的答案何补?
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    发表于 2019-7-22 00:41 | 显示全部楼层
    桂林棋客 发表于 2019-7-21 11:03
    神逻辑。
    我要是问民间相传太阳东升西落有史料出处吗?您也要求我得提供所谓民间相传的来源吗?即使我 ...

    怎么说呢?不知你是否做过任何历史研究,哪怕是最基本的研究?

    既然你说“近来才从外国人的著述中得知此说”,如果自己作研究,就应该顺着这笔资料提供的线索去找,不该在论坛寻求帮助。如果要别人帮忙,就该把这笔资料的相关部分贴出来。要是这笔资料没有提供任何线索,你可以给作者去信询问,否则就不要把它当回事。


    国内出版的书籍论文胡说八道的多的是,随意编一个故事你就信了?


    在下与欧洲最主要的两位围棋史研究者都合作过,对于中国、日本及西方的围棋史绝不会知道的比你少。






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    [LV.10]以坛为家III

    发表于 2019-7-22 02:39 | 显示全部楼层
    提及“围海”的英文文献很多,大多引自Andrew Wilson出版于1968年的The Bomb and the Computer: Wargaming from Ancient Chinese Mapboard to Atomic Computer,未找到该书,但似乎该书并未注明来源出处。


    第二个有贡献的学者是Peter Perla,出版于1990年的The Art of Wargaming直接提到孙子发明了最初的兵棋围海,这本书也未找到。


    在1994年发表的一篇文章里(Promoting health in schools through a board game),作者提到围海的出处来源于公元前625年,河南的一篇文章,但并未注明详细来源。


    目前信息大致如此,如有新信息,定会与您分享。

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    [LV.10]以坛为家III

    发表于 2019-7-22 09:08 | 显示全部楼层
    所谓孙武发明“围海”兵棋,以个人对围棋史的了解,臆测者居多。
    别的不说,孙武那个年代,围棋有没有发展到19路盘还不可知,如果只是17路盘,海说大可存疑。
    再说,孙武与围棋的关系,也是推测居多。
    甚至“围海”兵棋?我很孤陋寡闻,很想请教下,这是个什么词什么意思?出自何处?
    还有一个,楼上建议“首先你得提供所谓“外国人的著作”的来源,包括作者、书名、出版社名称,出版年代,等等。最主要的当然是前二者。”这个当然不是“神逻辑”,这是一个最起码的学术规范和要求。
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    [LV.5]常住居民I

    发表于 2019-7-22 09:10 | 显示全部楼层
    于贵帖看个热闹,并凑齐摇摇乐标配。
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    发表于 2019-7-22 09:27 | 显示全部楼层
    流水石上 发表于 2019-7-22 09:08
    所谓孙武发明“围海”兵棋,以个人对围棋史的了解,臆测者居多。
    别的不说,孙武那个年代,围棋有没有发展 ...

    国学问答里也有这样的提问者,掖着藏着,生怕透露一点信息给别人,只拿出一个字、一个词、一句话来问,不提供任何出处来源。

    点评

    请参见11楼图片,然仍与事无补。请不要以此猜疑楼主“生怕”什么。  发表于 2019-7-22 12:48
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    [LV.6]常住居民II

    发表于 2019-7-22 09:44 | 显示全部楼层
    本帖最后由 TOMZHAO 于 2019-7-22 09:46 编辑

    要考证以战争为主题的游戏最早出现于何时何地,是一项有着很大难度的课题。美国海军上校阿比·格林贝格(Abe Greenberg)对“战争游戏”最早起源的观点在西方受到了广泛的认同。格林贝格认为:世界上第一套以战争为主题的游戏是中国的军事家孙子所发明的“围海(Wei hai)”,这个游戏也正是我们今天熟悉的围棋的早期版本(Peter P Perla. The art of wargaming, 1990,P15)。而另一种观点认为,“战争游戏”起源于大概与孙子同时期的古印度的“恰图兰卡(Chaturanga)”。
    刘源《兵棋与兵棋推演》,国防大学出版社,2013.11,第25~26页

    据搜索,美国海军上校阿比·格林贝格(Abe Greenberg)认为世界上第一套以战争为主题的游戏是孙子所发明的“围海(Wei hai)“,但在中文文献中却很少提到。


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    [LV.8]以坛为家I

     楼主| 发表于 2019-7-22 12:35 | 显示全部楼层
    xiaodong14 发表于 2019-7-22 02:39
    提及“围海”的英文文献很多,大多引自Andrew Wilson出版于1968年的The Bomb and the Computer: Wargaming  ...

    谢谢指教,也分享一下相关信息:







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    点评

    受教了。倒是第一次看到“兵棋”之说。不过,第一感觉,是作者为了推广兵棋(估计是种新的玩法)特意附会上孙子这个兵家祖先和影响更广的围...  发表于 2019-7-23 08:54
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    [LV.8]以坛为家I

     楼主| 发表于 2019-7-22 12:46 | 显示全部楼层
    流水石上 发表于 2019-7-22 09:08
    所谓孙武发明“围海”兵棋,以个人对围棋史的了解,臆测者居多。
    别的不说,孙武那个年代,围棋有没有发展 ...

    请参见11楼我发的图片。
    说明一下:给这些图片只是为感谢6楼提供的信息而发分享资料,不是遵循什么学术规范和要求,因为在论文写作上,提供说法出处与史料出处根本就无内在逻辑关联:我们从某处能得到某作者关于某种说法的内容,但如果此作者并没有提供这种说法的出处,那知道不知道、追寻不追寻此作者的说法出处,意义并不太大。
    此帖中诸多热心人能提供外国人关于“围海”说法的来源,却并没有解决“围海”史料出处的问题,就可说明这二者之间并无内在的关联。
    关于这个问题,中国人关心应该是能否寻找出“围海”出处的史料,不是外国大爷的说法。
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    [LV.8]以坛为家I

     楼主| 发表于 2019-7-22 12:51 | 显示全部楼层
    偶一为之 发表于 2019-7-22 00:41
    怎么说呢?不知你是否做过任何历史研究,哪怕是最基本的研究?

    既然你说“近来才从外国人的著述中得知此 ...

    或许在此问题上,“胡说八道”的恰恰是外国人,您没有手榴弹往后投--炸自己中国人。
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    发表于 2019-7-22 23:53 | 显示全部楼层
    以下是国外某围棋论坛上关于“Wei Hai”的讨论,看来”围海“的源头可能是Abe Greenberg的论文“"An Outline of Wargaming." Naval War College Review 34,(September - October 1981): 93-97.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/baduk/comments/anci36/does_anyone_know_about_the_game_wei_hai/
    [color=var(--newCommunityTheme-actionIcon)]r/baduk

    Posted byu/marcusround

    8k5 months ago





    [color=var(--posttitletextcolor)]Does anyone know about the game "Wei hai"?




    I read [color=var(--newCommunityTheme-linkText)]this article which said:
    Sun Tzu, the author of The Art of War, developed a game which simulated the maneuvering of armies in order to help his students learn strategy. It is possible that this game, which Sun Tzu named Wei-Hai, evolved into the abstract strategy game Go over the centuries.
    I tried googling "wei hai" but sources were scant, and seemed to mostly use similar phrasing that implied they were all either referencing each other or all using one particular source.
    [color=var(--newCommunityTheme-linkText)]This article goes so far as to say "wei hai" is just a synonym for go; perhaps they are confusing it with "wei qi", but who knows?
    Does anyone know any more about this "Wei hai"?


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    level 1[color=var(--newCommunityTheme-bodyText)][color=var(--newCommunityTheme-linkText)]Andeol57

    1k15 points·[color=var(--newCommunityTheme-metaText)]5 months ago


    I don't know, but back when Sun Tzu was living (estimated 544–496 BC), go already existed. So it just doesn't add up that he could have invented a game that then evolved into go.
    That he played go and encouraged his students to play as well seems pretty believable, however. So maybe some confusion around this.
    To me, it looks like the author of this article is just making some personal guess and nothing more.












    level 2[color=var(--newCommunityTheme-bodyText)][color=var(--newCommunityTheme-linkText)]fojiaotu

    1 point·[color=var(--newCommunityTheme-metaText)]5 months ago

    Sun Tzu was living (estimated 544–496 BC)
    Worth noting that it's not even certain Sun Tzu ever existed: [color=var(--newCommunityTheme-linkText)]https://en.**.org/wiki/Sun_Tzu#Historicity










    [color=var(--newCommunityTheme-linkText)]Continue this thread







    level 1[color=var(--newCommunityTheme-bodyText)][color=var(--newCommunityTheme-linkText)]green_tealeaf

    11 points·[color=var(--newCommunityTheme-metaText)]5 months ago·edited 5 months ago

    A quick dig around shows a lot of dead-end links in various books that refer to other sources without, I suspect, having read through to the original.
    In "[color=var(--newCommunityTheme-linkText)]Sex in Space" you can find the line:
    "According to Thomas B. Allen, some sources also attribute the war game Wei Hai to Chinese philosopher-general Sun Tzu...".
    That seems to be a reference to “War Games” in "Reader's Companion to Military 58" by Thomas B. Allen. That article itself doesn't mention Wei Hai, but contains one reference to Sun Tzu: "Kapper, Frank. “The Simulation of Crisis” and “Sun Tzu, the Spring Offensive and the Home Hobbyist”. Defense 81, May 1981.". I couldn't find that online, so it's a bit of a dead end.

    Searching for other menti**, "Business Wargaming: Securing Corporate Value By Daniel F. Oriesek, Jan Oliver Schwarz" refers to a book by Perla (1990) for its brief paragraph mentioning Wei Hai. That book is "The Art of Wargaming: A Guide for Professionals and Hobbyists (Perla, 1990)", which contains:

    "Despite our uncertainty about the true origins of wargaming, it seems somehow fitting and at the same time satisfying to follow the lead of Captain Abe Greenberg of the U.S. Navy and credit the invention of the first wargame to Sun Tzu, the Chinese general and military philosopher whose classic Art of War has influenced and enlightened so many readers for so many centuries.2 (And, incidentally, has also served as the inspiration for the title of this book.) Greenberg credits Sun Tzu with creating the game known as Wei Hai (meaning "encirclement") about five thousand years ago.

    Little is known about the game or its actual origins, but it appears likely that it was similar to, and probably the original version of, the later Japanese game of Go. Like Go, Wei Hai used a specially designed abstract playing surface upon which each of the contestants maneuvered their armies of colored stones. In keeping with Sun Tzu’s philosophy of resorting to the chances of battle only as a last resort, victory went not to the player who could bludgeon his opponent head-on, but to the first player who could outflank his enemy. "

    The reference there is to "Abe Greenberg, Captain, U.S. Navy, “An Outline of Wargaming,” Naval War College Review, p. 93.". (On further digging, it's the September–October 1981 issue of the journal.) EDIT: On even further digging, that's the issue that's quoted for it, but now that I've found this journal online, it's not in that issue.

    I haven't been able to track that down, but given the fact that most other references are very much secondary, that seems like it may well have been the one that spawned the others.

    Life would be so much easier if people would reference their claims properly. (That would then be made even better if half of these sources weren't locked up behind paywalls by people trying to claim vast sums of money for minor, short, obscure articles written nearly half a century ago...)

    I did see a few claims on various blogs and forums that it was just a romanization of the Cantonese into English, but this page (linked from a discussion on Sensei's Library: [color=var(--newCommunityTheme-linkText)]https://senseis.xmp.net/?Weiqi%2FDiscussion) shows a range of dialectual pronunciati** of the second character of weiqi "棋", and none of them seem close to "hai": [color=var(--newCommunityTheme-linkText)]http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/resp**e.cgi?single=1&basename=\data\china\doc&text_number=1422&root=config

    So I'm at a dead end at the Abe Greenberg article in the Naval War College Review, unless someone can track that down!












    level 2[color=var(--newCommunityTheme-bodyText)][color=var(--newCommunityTheme-linkText)]green_tealeaf

    2 points·[color=var(--newCommunityTheme-metaText)]5 months ago

    The Naval War College Review seems to be online here, but I'm not finding that article in it: [color=var(--newCommunityTheme-linkText)]https://digital-comm**.usnwc.edu/nwc-review/










    [color=var(--newCommunityTheme-linkText)]Continue this thread







    level 1[color=var(--newCommunityTheme-bodyText)][color=var(--newCommunityTheme-linkText)]tingozhu

    10 points·[color=var(--newCommunityTheme-metaText)]5 months ago

    At the time of Sun Tzu, the game of go already exists and was called 弈 Yi or 棋 Qi at that time. Some documents at that time claims that the game was invented by an antient monarch named 尧 Yao.
    The term 围棋 weiqi was not used until decades or centuries later.
    As a native Chinese I have never heard the word Wei Hai.













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    真心感谢  发表于 2019-7-23 13:54

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    发表于 2019-7-23 00:24 | 显示全部楼层
    找到Abe Greenberg的文章 "An Outline of Wargaming"。看上去他很可能是把“Wei Chi”误拼为“Wei Hai”了,后来的其他著作都是以讹传讹,延续同一种错误拼法。



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    [LV.8]以坛为家I

     楼主| 发表于 2019-7-23 13:54 | 显示全部楼层
    平心而论,在学术问题上,欧洲人在精准提供结论方面,比中国人勇猛多了。
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